Thursday, February 07, 2013

HISTORY. Tralee, Queen Scotia and Slieve Mish, Scota. Mountain Grave. An Irish Big Dig

for Scota.
Queen Scotia
 The Big Web Dig for Irish Pre-History Tribal Origins

Scota, Scotia, as ancestor of the Milesians, see
This is our Web Dig, to find the origins and attributes of Queen Scotia, Scota, Sgota. There is a grave with that identification-indications of name, as she was buried in antiquity and with Egyptian hieroglyphs, they say,  as befits the Pharaoh's daughter that she (some say) was. 

This grave of Scota is near Tralee, at the Slieve Mish Mountains, the range in the central area at the beginning of the Dingle Peninsula, western Ireland. Our interest then moves to other sources supporting the idea of this lady and her people peopling Ireland, at Plain Meaning, Origin Stories

Scholars and regular folk are interested.  See this large site, and track the Milesian connection alleged,, a site also for vetting Scota tales. Scota, Scotia.
1. Folk-source summary.  For a quick look at a folk-literature summary of the Scots connection, and information at those sites, see Caledonia, Queen Scotia, and Scotland.  Queen Scotia's husband had been killed while fighting Ireland's famed Tuatha de Danaan; and Scotia, a warrior herself, led the troops against the Tuatha-de herself, with her sons, and prevailed.  See her as a figurehead on a 19th Century Scots brig that was shipwrecked off Cornwall, The Caledonia. No wild woman, that. See
We want to know Scota's origins, her place in prehistory.
  •  She and her husband and their group fought (both were warriors) the old Tuatha de Danaan, here the Pantheon site, of prehistory. 
    • Was there a connection between their heritage, and /or the mysterious Tuath-de, that tie into migrations from the ancient Middle East. Haplogroups:  genetic evidence, for those interested in getting very concrete, if they have the expertise to decipher, see
    •  As an individual Queen:  We want to know her accomplishments. There are numerous tales, with variations, and we track some of those. What commonalities.
      • Was she merely a King's wife, in the same kind of patriarchal system that smothers us, and the mother of six sons who went on to rule Ireland; who was an accomplished horsewoman who died trying to leap a stream-bank while pregnant on her horse and falling off. And so she died. See that version at
  • If that is all there is, why do we find references to her and her Milesian people, that tie her people from ancient  Palestine and the Old Testament (yes!) and a tribe of Hebrews (not "Jews" at that time) who migrated through Egypt (perhaps) to Spain (Iberia - Eber- Hebrew) and from there to Ireland, Hibernia. The "Scotti" of Ireland (roots of Scotia?) went to Scotland, gave it their name, and the groups went back and forth for millennia.
  • Sources for ancient migration evidence or belief include: "The histories of England, Wales, and Scotland, even Ireland also, were intertwined in ancient times such that the whole British Isles, due to the proximity of the islands, then shared a common British history, with common elements in the population of the islands, until the time of the Roman conquest of a large part of Britain ...." See the account at The British Chronicles Book 1, by David Hughes, 2007 / at page 43.  As to Picts: "  ...Credne is remembered in Irish tradition as the leader of the migration of the majority of the Irish Picts from Ireland to Scotland (emphasis added) during the Gaelic Conquest of Ireland, whence their name." See page 46. See portions at the google book there.
    • So, were Picts in Ireland first (having come from the Orkneys and Hebrides or some such earlier) and did they fight Scota's group as Scota & Co. invaded; and then the pressured Picts headed (some) to Scotland; and then so did the Scotti or Scotii; and who was the Tuatha de Danaan that we understand that Scotia and group fought. The Picts?
  • What support is there for a migration route from the eastern Mediterranean to Ireland through Spain, including "evidence" like place names, and were they one of the Hebrew tribes; or counted instead (or in addition) from descendants of (here goes) Noah.  
    • This gets to be a rabbit hole. 
    • A medieval source, Nennius 8th Century (look up Medieval Sourcebook), ties in groups from Spain to Ireland, and matches the moving groups with Old Testament timing - see FN 1 (open source).
2,  For those of us new to this, it is confusing. Who? Which? Either?

 If the stories are irreconcilable, fine. Look at place names for history.

Making sense of markers is ongoing - Look at geography,  The Isle of Man, between the Irish Sea and Solway Firth, Scotland, and north England, would be a natural stop-off for people going back and forth from Europe, and even arriving.  There is a small wiry dark group there, with legends about them having Spanish origins, see Find there Spanish origins, and even Middle Eastern before that.
  • Of course, dating of legends is difficult. Was this reference merely the Spanish Armada shipwrecking in 1588? Scroll down to Kione Spainey, or Spanish Head - Spain was once visible from this spot, so it says.
If nothing is determinable beyond reasonable doubt, it is interesting, and we lay out what we have found here. We did find a discussion page with long dissertations on the tribes at and a map of Irish Celtic tribes.
  •  Is Celtic different from the differing migrations we read about? Is Scotia considered Celtic?  How could that be?  
  • That site also finds, at a post by a mysteryinternetchatsource (like us) "mikescottnz",  two Scotias, each with a different history-connection to Ireland. 
    • We read and tried to make sense of it, and came up with four Scotas, each of whom is fine and to be remembered:  
    • Hello? Mike Scott in New Zealand, is that you?  What did we get wrong?
3.  The various Scotas so far.
  • Scota One:  Scythian prince Fenius Farsaid, is her father-in-law. In a "pseudo-Biblical" account, a "Christianized myth" perhaps with Irish monastic glosses (Nennius?) she is an Egyptian princess, daughter of Nectanebus (there was Nectanebus I and Nectanebus II), married Mil. Mil would be the son of Fenius Farsaid.  Their son is Goidal Glas and he devises the Irish language from the 72 that arose "from the dispersal of the nations"(?) Goidal Glas' descendants are the Gaels and they wander for centuries (so clearly Scota One never got to Ireland to be buried) and finally settle in Iberia. Further descendant Breogan founds city Brigantia and builds tower. This may be at Coruna, NW Galicia. their sons
  • Scota Two:  From early Irish chronicle, the Lebor Gabala (Book of Invasions, Book of Conqests). Scota is an Egytian princess, daughter of Cingris (name only in legend). Princess Scota. She married Niul, a son of Fenius Farsaid who was a Babylonian who traveled to Scythia after the Tower of Babel collapsed (more Christian glosses?).Niul was a "linguistic scholar" and the Pharaoh invited him and gave him Scota to marry. They had the son, Goidal Glas, who did the Irish language. The Israelites leave Egypt, and so must Goidal.  His descendants settle in Iberia, where Mil Espaine was born. Two of his sons, Eber Finn and Eremon settle Ireland.
  • And Scota Three? The Story of the Irish Race, by Seumas McManus:  Scota married Niul, but Niul is the grandson of Goidal Glas. 
  • In the alternative, do we have Scota Four?  Scota is the Egyptian princess who married Miled or Miletius. Queen Scota. He died, she went to Ireland with her 8 sons and their fams, big storm and many died, and Scota died fighting the Tuatha de Denaan. And so to Glenn Scoithinn, Vale of the Little Flower, and Scotia, perhaps.
4. For earlier origins back to the Middle East, and then in Spain, see Zaragoza: Zahar of the Red Hand. Look for the Scythians, language links to the Phoenician, Hebrew borrowing from the Phoenician word forms, and so on.

And Zahar himself. This part is not in the usual Chronicles, apparently, and that is understandable because in time it was not desirable to have a Hebrew background, is that so?

5.  A Hebrew Speculative Connection, to be Woven In, Perhaps.  Eighth Century Chronicler Nennius and the Rest:  Prepare to Amend

Zahar was the grandson of Jacob, famed in Genesis by being identified as the firstborn of twins, thus entitled to the birthright, and the midwife tied a red cord around his wrist to identify him; but then he pulled his arm back in (precocious, but unwise for the inheritance) and his brother was fully born first, and got it all. See Genesis.  Zahar, left out, left. His own Odyssey.

Is Zahar's line a lost tribe of Israel, and is this their story.  Great fun.

5.1  Origins as Gaelic or Scythian.  Naming carries clues. 

The traditional name for the grave area, a diminutive "Little Flower" is shown by the name of the area of the alleged gravesite, near Tralee, at Glen Scoithin (the Flower part) or Foley's Glen.  
  • To some, the Scoithin argues for her Gaelic origins, Scoithin as a synonym for traditional women's Gaelic names, Flora or Rosa.  To others, the Scoithin ties with the Scythian woman, as she is also known. Wikipedia at Scotia's Grave adds that Scoithin information, that we had not had before.
  • However, there are far more possibilities, even though those do not help the Gaelic pride line, and do show many even more links to Scythian. See page 46 at ://
Identity and lineage.

5.2  The Red Hand took hold in Ireland in various ways, and not necessarily directly connected to Zahar.

There is also the Red Hand of Ulster, that we looked at in American politics -- the use of the red hand in political advertising, to rally political supporters.  See Red Hand, "Family", JPMorgan Chase, Code.  Scroll down to the Ulster section.  A modern exploitation of the red hand, a diminution of a core symbol for Ireland, with its pros and cons, uses in violence. A trivializing of The Red Hand to use it in America.

Ui Niall was a Milesian, as was Scotia.  If the Milesians were Hebrew by extraction, then the red hand has a double meaning - Ulster and the Old Testament.  And if it became unfashionable as centuries passed, to be known as Hebrews, then the red hand idea could move easily from Story 1, about the birth of Zahar and his descendants wandering; to Story 2, update when Ui Niall hacks his off and hurls it to the beach in time to claim the Ulster coast. But if Ui Niall himself is a descendant of the wandering tribe, we are back at square one, and happily so.


FN 1  Medieval Sourcebook, Nennis -Historia Brittonum, 8th Century, at ://  Note the main introduction, that this early source relies on oral and other traditions. This is not entirely to be discounted, however, see the modern The British Chronicles, Heritage Books, by David Hughes (2007) (incorporation of this and similar source material but with discussion and choices)

Meet Nennius and his account:
11. AEneas reigned over the Latins three years; Ascanius thirty-three years; after whom Silvius reigned twelve yeaars, and Posthumus thirty-nine years: the latter, from whom the kings of Alba are called Silvan, was brother to Brutus, who governed Britain at the time Eli the high-priest judged Israel, and when the Ark of the covenant was taken by a foreign people. But Posthumus his brother reigned among the Latins.
12. After an interval of not less than eight hundred years, came the Picts, and occupied the Orkney Islands: whence they laid waste many regions, and seized those on the left hand side of Britain, where they still remain, keeping possession of a third part of Britain to this day.
13. Long after this, the Scots arrived in Ireland from Spain (emphasis added) The first that came was Partholomus, with a thousand men and women, these increased to four thousand; but a mortality coming suddenly upon them, they all perished in one week. The second was Nimech, the son of …..who, according to report, after having his ships shattered, arrived at a port in Ireland, and continuing there several years, returned at length with his followers to Spain. After these came three sons of a Spanish soldier with thirty ships, each of which contained thirty wives; and having remained there during the space of a year, there appeared to them, in the middle of the sea, a tower of glass, the summit of which seemed covered with men, to whom they often spoke, but received no answer. At length they determined to besiege the tower; and after a year's preparation, advanced towards it, with the whole number of their ships, and all the women, one ship only excepted, which had been wrecked, and in which were thirty men, and as many women; but when all had disembarked on the shore which surrounded the tower, the sea opened and swallowed them up. Ireland, however, was peopled, to the present period, from the family remaining in the vessel which was wrecked. Afterwards, others came from Spain, and possessed themselves of various parts of Britain.
 Egyptian Princess become Queen. Milesian King.  A group arriving in Spain, and the Queen leading the band after the death of the king from there to Ireland?

Not out of the question after all. Ancient Carthage and ancient Egypt were great empires before Rome, and took over Spain as well as the Mediterranean coastal areas, and tips of other places.  Travel was not unusual, and would have been facilitated by the conquests. From Spain to Ireland:  short sail. See legends from the time of the Flood, through the Old Testament, at After the Flood:  Irish Biblical Roots and Egypt.

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